Wednesday, March 9, 2011
Transit City wants downtown streetcar to use new Beltline friendly vehicles — for an additional $9 million
Posted by Thomas Wheatley @thomaswheatley on Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:23 AM
- Wikimedia
- Siemens S70 in Houston
If funding falls into place, the city plans to purchase the Siemens S70 vehicle. The model, one of which you can see to the right, offers room for more than 195 passengers, interior bike racks and wheelchair spaces. Sixty passengers would have seating options. The model is currently used by at least six other American cities' streetcar systems.
The Atlanta City Council on Monday OK'ed a complex proposal by Mayor Kasim Reed's office to purchase the streetcar vehicles — at a cost of more than $9 million — that involves tapping a rental-car tax fund. Deputy Chief Operating Officer Duriya Farooqui told members of Council's Finance and Executive Committee last week that such a move would have no impact on the city's general fund. (For more details on the streetcar proposal — and some photos of what the vehicles might look like — download this PDF.)
Typically the fund has been used to finance public improvements around Philips Arena. But the law also permits the city to use the fund to help pay capital costs for convention, trade, sports, recreational and public safety facilities, among other uses. Several years ago the Atlanta Development Authority issued bonds from the fund to help build permanent supportive housing for the homeless. The mayor's office thinks its streetcar upgrade is an appropriate use.
So why fork over more cash to purchase shiny new vehicles rather than used, refurbished cars as the city had originally proposed?
For the last two months, Farooqui said, the city's been working with Atlanta Beltline officials to determine how the downtown streetcar and 22-mile loop could connect. These new vehicles could operate on both tracks, and in the process, help create a seamless, more robust transit system. (That possible connection was able to convince Councilwoman Yolanda Adrean, who last year voted against the streetcar project, to support the proposal.)
The preferred newer vehicle also features low-floor doors that would be level with the curb, allowing greater access to senior citizens and the handicapped. An older model would require building ramps as long as 45 feet — something Farooqui said might harm economic development along the streetcar route. She also said older vehicles would need to be replaced in 10 years, while newer models offer a 30-year lifespan. The upfront cost would save approximately $5 million in the long run.
The decision to fork over more public dollars didn't come without questions from some councilmembers.
Councilwoman Felicia Moore, one of the city's most vocal financial watchdogs, noted during last week's committee meeting that the city's contribution to the project was increasing. Her colleague Alex Wan echoed Moore's concerns about the total cost.
"First it was $10 million," Wan said. "Then it was $16 million, now we're talking about #25 million the city’s putting in."
Wan, who ultimately voted on Monday to OK the measure because of the streetcar's potential link to the Beltline, said that although he wants to support the streetcar project, he wondered why the rental car tax fund couldn't be used to help boost tourism or pay for other city projects around Philips Arena that are currently draining the general fund.
Councilman C.T. Martin said the project was a "glittering, shiny trophy" the federal government imposed on the city. He — along with Councilwomen Felicia Moore and Natalyn Archibong — were the lone "no" votes against the proposal.
Comments (73)
Showing 1-50 of 73
Liberal transit boondoggle. Please GA, don't let one cent of state tax money go to this waste.
People are fleeing cities to the suburbs and this train is just a sad attempt by the city to remain relevant.
Money would be better spent on widening I-575 so I can drive to Costco faster. I've got a damn trunk full of ice cream and it's melting while I'm stuck in this traffic! The real Americans out here in Cherokee need more lanes!
like
dislike@Moist Biscuits lol, love the sarcasm.
We also need Deal to hurry up and sign the new measure that allows billboard operators to clear cut trees blocking their signage. However could I know where the closest Wal-Mart is, if some old ugly pine tree obstructs my view of their advertisement!!
Hey pchukwura just because its public property that belongs to taxpayers doesn't mean private enterprises shouldn't profit from it at our expense! Come on this is the "new" Georgia. Besides the nice thing is it prohibits beautification efforts if they threaten visibility of billboards so that will save money by outlawing these crazed streetscape projects!
Seriously though, the low floor aspect is very worthy. And of course the connection to belt line transit and the image are nice bonuses. I certainly think this streetcar will be a huge asset to the World Congress Center thus increasing our appeal as a convention city (can't rely on strippers in the new world order).
Now if we only had a team people wanted to see in the Phillips Arena, this would be helpful...sigh...those Hawks.
Anywho...love the idea, love that we are thinking ahead. Let's build it already, I'm ready to enjoy the city on the Beltline.
Also, I guess this mean Vine City, may finally be a place to live...hmmmm!?
Definition of white elephant:
1. A rare, expensive possession that is a financial burden to maintain. Something of dubious or limited value.
2. An article, ornament, or household utensil no longer wanted by its owner.
3. An endeavor or venture that proves to be a conspicuous failure.
It will be all of those things. Item 2 will take years. Item 3 will take months.
As usual, I hope I'm wrong.
Oy I hope you are wrong also. They've not turned out to be white elephant's in other cities and I think it will revitalize the area but I can't deny that Atlanta, Metro Atlanta and Georgia are a unique beast - but if we are the exception, the failure, then we got bigger problems than this possible white elephant.
The use of modern streetcars makes sense. Although great for nostalgia's sake, old trolley cars do not have the carrying capacity or amenities needed to make a modern streetcar system a success. Also, there is only one refurbished Atlanta streetcar in existence up in East Haven, CT (http://www.bera.org/). The historic rolling stock was sent to Korea after streetcar service ended in Atlanta in 1949 and were later destroyed over time.
Besides, what is the point of introducing historic streetcars in Atlanta if they're not really Atlanta streetcars? Kinda stupid and hokey (like the dumb arch at Atlantic Station)
I like the arch. Guvmint was not shaken down to build it. That gives me something akin to beer goggles when I look at it.
I suppose this removes any doubt that the Beltline shall be paved and shared with autos -- only where "necessary," of course.
Is Mayor Reed falling into the trap of spending money that isn't there? Is Reed's 15 seconds of fame on the national scene going to his head? Is Reed beginning to think (a la Shirley Franklin) that once he blesses an idea, it becomes good and will work?
@Question Man.
Yes, that's what politicians do.
Doubtful since the "fame" isn't really much to speak about.
Most likely no. Reed spent plenty of time under the Gold Dome. It's hard to get out of there without understanding compromise and collaboration even if it is just within your own party. The few who don't learn that lesson get bumped up to West Paces Ferry or DC.
Streetcar has limited probability of success for a couple of reasons. (i) Atlantans think that driving is some sort of God given right (ii) There isn't enough by way of development on the path of the streetcars - at least from the maps I've seen - for this to make sense. (iii) You're connecting the streetcar with the Beltline - which will ultimately become a colassal failure, and the streetcar's viability will fail with the Beltline's failure.
That said, if you want a great way to find tax revenue to support this, as well as other city needs, the best way is a commuter tax. Tolls for anyone who enters the city from outside of I-285. That means increasing the toll on 400, adding tolls on 75, 85, & 20, as well as any other major arteries that come into the city. A small tax on people who take so much from the city and give nothing back is (i) long overdue, and (ii) a great way to fix some of the budget shortfalls.
AtlantaAdvocate, the city can't put tolls on STATE roads. That is up to the state and you know they won't do that.
There is plenty of things along the streetcar route - Centennial Olympic Park, GA Aquarium, World of Coke, Phillips Arena/GA Dome, the new College Football Museum and Civil Rights Museum which will open in the next 2 years, Georgia State University, Peachtree Center MARTA station, the MLK Center, offices, several residences that have popped up in recent years, and this will help give a big push to the Edgewood and Fairlie Poplar districts for more restaurants, bars, and apartments/condos.
Also, how can you say the Beltline will be a huge failure? The section between Lindbergh MARTA to Inman Park MARTA/Dekalb Avenue is ripe for transit. The density and support is there.
What is wrong with people in this city? If Houston and Dallas (and Charlotte!) can do it, so can Atlanta.
@Midtown Mike, it's not the people inside the city that are the problem. It's those outside who think they have a say-- you don't pay city taxes, OTPers-- so, we should listen to you about what we should do with OUR tax money because??
The Siemens S70 sure does strike more than just a passing resemblance to the Simpson's monorail, (thus visually at least, it adds support to my earlier arguments which were more difficult to envision with an 'old-timey' streetcar).
@Midtown Mike - why do you think the state would be so resistent to putting up tolls? I think, logically, there's a pretty open/shut case that could be made, and that case would only be further supported by the economics of it. Of course, there's the political aspect of it - which may be what you're referring to. However, I see that solved pretty easily. Instead of tolling the roads, for people to pay a commuter tax (many major cities do it, and it's done wonders for the congestions, as well as the budget). You simply require people to pay a fee if they want to drive into the city during certain hours.
The map, for where the streetcar runs, is probably the one place in the city that doesn't need the transportation. Where the streetcar will run is a relatively densely built area, with short blocks, and is very easy to navigate on foot. There is no reason to spend millions to provide streetcars in an area that people could easily walk on foot. It's like saying NYC needs a street car between 14th & 42nd street on Park Ave.
The beltline is going to be a failure, because with the exception of a few small areas - including the one you listed - the transportation, the parks, and the green development are wasteful. Anyone with any knowledge of basic economics knows that when you allocate resources to one place, you are taking resources away from another. The Beltine is not an efficent allocation of resources, when the monies that will be spent could be used to incentivize businesses to locate into the city, developers to built rental housing where it's needed, expand Marta service to other area of the city where it's needed, etc.
I agree with your sentiments - "What's wrong with people in this city" - but I agree with them because people in Atlanta have virtually zero interest in exploring new ideas for culture, nightlife, transportation, and urban living. Instead they'd rather tv, applebees, and a huge home in the burbs that they need only 1/10 of to live. Have you been on Houston's streetcar? It's a joke! Nobody rides it. Charlotte's is slightly better, but still vacant all the time. The beltline is jsut another attempt for politicians to act like they're supporting the city, while actually diostroying it through thoughtless ventures and poor policy.
Siemens is a joke - what about all of their "subliminal ads" of goodwill! Check it out on google. Huge company making big money! All at our expense.
Yeah, it would be a shame if companies weren't in the business of making profits.
AtlantaAdvocate, you're perversely using two light-rail success stories as an attempt to discredit the route for the Atlanta streetcar.
Houston METROrail daily weekday ridership is 34,155. That's a lot of riders for a single-line, 7 mile train. Charlotte's Lynx the daily ridership is 21,600. Far from a failure it has been more successful than predicted. According to Wikipedia, "by the end of the first quarter of 2008, weekday ridership had increased to 18,600, double first-year projections and ahead of the 2025 projections."
You're right -- there's no need to spend millions of dollars on a streetcar for transportation in dense, walkable zone. And that would be a very keen insight except that it doesn't apply to the streetcar project, which is much more than a transportation tool for the specific route it travels. It's a development tool and a source of greater connectivity for a shamefully divided neighborhood.
And now, for the umpteenth time, an excerpt from the stated goals of the streetcar from the Tiger II grant proposal:
"From a national perspective, the streetcar links the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site on the east side of Downtown Atlanta to Centennial Olympic Park on the west, via historic Auburn Avenue, the birthplace of our nation’s civil rights movement. Located within an Economically Distressed Area, the project will serve as a catalyst for new pedestrian-oriented development, support mixed-use projects, and reinforce existing land use and zoning plans.
It will also reconnect the eastern and western sections of Downtown Atlanta, which were effectively separated by the construction of Interstate 75/85 in the mid 1950s. The barrier of the I-75/85 overpass has left a negative, lasting adverse impact that destroyed the vibrant local economy previously existing in the Auburn Avenue corridor. The Atlanta Streetcar will restore this historic community and foster overall greater livability, social cohesion, and economic development in the Atlanta area."
AtlantaAdvocate, surbuban folks won't come into the city now and it's free, you think they are going to pay a toll? And judging by how pissed people are about extending the GA400 tolls, they don't seem to be a popular option. So no, I don't see the state supporting adding tolls to EXISTING highways just to get in and out of Atlanta, sorry. If that is your idea on how to make the city better and exploring "new options", I feel sorry for you.
The Beltline will make the city more attractive and it is certainly not wasteful. Ugh, I'm not going to bother with any of the other stuff you said. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how warped it may be.
I second what Darin said, especially the development tool stuff! All transportation investments impact development. And I believe this will encourage some fantastic and sustainable development patterns that will have a lower contribution to congestion and or our dependence on oil.
Darin, I used Houston and Charlotte as examples, because they were referenced by another user. As impressive as those numbers your provided may seem, it doesn't change the fact that the Houston Metro becomes more and more of a financial disaster as time goes by. I know your numbers sound great, but the number of riders doesn't matter if you're not turning a profit. That's typically what happens with senseless new development - it does well initially when the rush to explore the new installment is in full force, and then when the initial shine wears off and it becomes apparent that the practicality isn't there, it becomes a huge financial burden. Charlotte's Lynx is only a few years old (however, serves a better purpose than Houston's Metro) but could face the same problem.
The rest of your post is devoid of urban sensibility. No development that follows a streetcar line is going to be (i) a long-term accretive development, or (ii) will be a development that will survive. Cities are about people, not fancy new streetcars to cater people back and forth between underdeveloped areas. Furthermore, those areas that you mentioned (btw MLK Museum & COP) are relatively dense compared to a lot of other intown neighborhoods, and the walkability between those neighborhoods is pretty easy - save for safety. The area that you're talking about being "split" is actually not even close to as divided as say the area between 17th st & Ponce.
@Midtown Mike - millions of people come into the city on a daily basis, because they have to. They work here, and therefore have to come into the city to get paid...a toll will not affect that. Excvept for the fact that some people may choose to move back into the city and not pay a "congestion" tax, rather than live outside and pay it. This type of incentive has been used in both London & Singapore, and has worked out extremely well. Furthermore, I don't think the level of anger from the 400 corridor residents is something that should deter a positive program for this city. If they're angry about having to pay the toll it's because they have to come into the city (most likely for work). If they don't want to pay the toll, they have 2 options - move into the city, or find another job outside of the city. Of course, at the same time as adding this "congestion" tax, the city should be using the benefits to provide incentives for companies to locate inside the city. This creates more jobs in Atlanta (not in Alpharetta or Johns Creek), and as a result with either increase the population in the city, or increase the revenues from commuters. Both positive outcomes, the former obviously moreso.
@InATL...you're wrong. not all transportation investments impact development. The People Mover in detroit is a perfect example of this. It was developed, to promote transportation in a blighted area, with the notion that if people could get around, businesses would follow. Wrong. Without residents and incentives to be in the city, there was nobody to ride the transport, and no reasonable incentive for a business to open. It's a massive failure, and a waste of money.
The fact in all this is that Atlanta is ga-ga over the Beltline, because it's something that's "new" & "cool" for the urbane-less population of this city to brag about to make them feel like Atlanta is a thriving city. People will come in form the suburbs, and venture out to the beltline from other intown neighborhoods for the first year, maybe 2 (if lucky), to explore and see all the places the Beltline goes. However, after the initial luster wears off, people are going to revert to taking their cars everywhere, ignoring the public transport available to them (for the same reason so many people avoid MARTA, despite it being perfectly reasonable to take it). Then you're going to be left with a development that only transports a few poor people back and forth between under-developed neighborhoods (sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?). These neighborhoods will be under-developed, because the city (any many posters here) thought that people would want to live somewhere because there was a streetcar. Of course, it would have made more sense to take the funds for those cars and provide them as incentives to businesses to create sustainable economic impact, like jobs, or housing (and byt that, I mean rental housing), so that people will populate an area, and draw businesses to that area to meet their needs for food, retail, entertainment, etc.
I appreciate the opinions here, but they are misled by people who clearly don't know the first thing about urban development. Unfortunately, most politicians and city officials don't know the first thing about urban development either. They do know what buys votes, and what looks good on the local news. The facts are in my favor folks, and there are plenty of failed or failing public transport porjects in this country that prove that...
Atlanta Advocate, "millions" of people do NOT come into the city everyday. The city's population increases by 200-300,000 during the workweek at most. It is not anywhere near even 1 million.
Second, the tolls work in London, NYC, and Singapore because they are a lot denser and have excellent transit - subways, trains to the suburbs, etc. You don't have to drive to get to the city or around it! MARTA rail and bus is not sufficient. The Beltline and the streetcar will help make Atlanta more walkable because it will go places MARTA rail doesn't and can't. For example, people don't want to walk from one end of Downtown to the other and businesses can't survive. If you put in a streetcar or light rail, it's easier to shuffle people around to different parts of the city.
Sorry, but nobody is going to pay a toll to enter the city and if they decide not to drive, they don't have much of a choice to get around. Also, a bunch of tolls are not going to make people want to live in the city. They will just continue to avoid it. We need to make the city more accessible to get to and get around without a car, not wall it off. With our current infrastructure, tolls will kill the city and businesses will leave.
The streetcar and the Beltline will give people more choices while increasing density and turning around transitioning areas. The Beltline is a unique idea - putting tolls on the highway isn't. The state WILL NOT toll all existing general purpose highway lanes, only the HOV lanes... so keep dreaming.
And if your definition of urban development is putting up a bunch of tolls to get into and out of a city that lacks adequate public transit and is hardly considered pedestrian friendly, then I think you are the one who is misled.
Atlanta's biggest issue is crime not traffic alternatives. Just recently downtown schools are warning students not to stray too far off campus. Does anyone think that a streetcar is the best solution to make downtown safer, thus increased pedestrian traffic, thus further increasing safety, etc. etc.? People form the 'burbs will spend more time and money downtown if they feel it is safer. That in turn will help fund traffic initiatives or at least make them easier to pass.
Sadly all it will take is a shooting or a series of muggings related to or near the streetcar and it will become an utter waste of funds and effort.
You want something quaint to help the area? How about hiring a mounted police unit/s to patrol the same route 12pm to 12am for a fraction of the cost.
Again, wrong. The Atlanta MSA has 5.5mm people in it, and the city of Atlanta has a population of just over 550k. Of the remaining 5mm people that are in the Atlanta MSA, you're going to try to tell me that only 5%-6% commute into the city for work!? Unbelievable.
How is the Streetcar going to make Atlanta more walkable? It's going to connect an area that can easily be walked as it is. Businesses have a hard time surviving in Atlanta with foot traffic as it is, not because there isn't some sort of transportation that will take them off the street at intervals, but because so few people actually live down there. Therefore so many of the businesses that exist are businesses that singular in purpose - crappy deli's, chain restaurants, etc. that cater to the 9-5 crowd or the people that are down in that area for events. Go to downtown Atlanta on a night where there aren't events, and after the workday is over, and it's a freaking ghost-town. You need PEOPLE from different socioeconomic classes that live there, and populate the place to have sustainable business. Do you honestly think that shuffling people back and forth from Auburn Avenue to Centennial Park is going to be a boon for new business!?
Only a small portion of the Beltline project will actually be beneficial to connectivity and mobility, and that will be the few pieces that connect populated places, by going through populated places. That mess of proposed development out by the waterworks, for example, is a colossal waste.
You're missing the whole point with the toll - FAR more than the 5-6% of Atlanta's population commutes into the city on a daily basis. Those that do HAVE to come into the city to do their jobs - the things that support their lifestyles. When they come into the city they use the services and resources of the city (not to mention the environmental impact), while giving nothing back. These commuters should be taxed for their congestion and use of the city. Nobody is telling them that they can't drive their car once they get in the city, but it's going to cost them. Some people will stop commuting down 400, and they'll start taking MARTA in - a benefit for Atlanta's public transport system, as well as the environment. If people's jobs are in the city, they will pay the toll, or take public transport (where available) into the city. Period. Nobody is going to quit their job, because they have to pay a small toll. Are you telling me that the executive in Alpharetta that drives into Buckhead is going to quit his job because he has to pay $2 a day to come into the city? Or what about the wage worker on a more restrained budget - maybe the $2 a day will be a strain on him - and so he'll move somewhere in-town that is close to a train station, or close to his work. And, like I said, if the city is providing proper incentives to businesses to come into the city, businesses will cease relocating outside of the city, thus driving up the need to come into the city or live in the city. It's the function of incentives, in its most basic form.
I know tolls are a pipe-dream, but not because they're a bad idea, instead because they're politically unpopular.
If you've read any of my posts you'd realize that my idea of urban development is a diverse mix of uses, with the most important component being rental housing. You're clearly not paying attention, and you're clearly just blinded by the fact that you want something new and shiny to make you feel like you live in a progressive & thriving city.
Vox also makes a great point. Extending a new system of transport without proper security is a huge issue. In addition to a police force, do you know what serves as one of the most effective forces against crime? People. Particularly a dense population of people that live in a specific area, and effortlessly patrol the streets just by being there.
No AtlantaAdvocate, you are wrong:
"According to a 2000 daytime population estimate by the Census Bureau,[61] over 250,000 more people commuted to Atlanta on any given workday, boosting the city's estimated daytime population to 676,431. This is an increase of 62.4% over Atlanta's resident population, making it the largest gain in daytime population in the country among cities with fewer than 500,000 residents. "
http://www.encompassmediagroup.com/atlanta…
So in the last 10 years, the number went from 250,000 to "millions"? I don't think so. And guess what... many people also work in the Perimeter area as well as Cobb and Gwinnett Counties.
You are wrong about the amount of people who commute to the city of Atlanta and although you are entitled to your opinion, it is also wrong. Sorry.
too bad Georgia is broke?? Guess that 9 million was under a matress that was thrown in one of those yards where all the trash is left to rot at.
First off, thank you. You just proved my point. Second, lets get some facts and figures that aren't 11 years old...According to the census bureau, the Atlanta MSA has a population of 5.475mm in 2009. The CITY of Atlanta had 540,000 as of 2009. It's all on the website, so feel free to look it up. Now, your data, which is 11 years old, claimed that 250,000 people commuted into the city in 2000. That number is clearly greater today, particularly given the growth of the city, as well as the suburbs over the last 11 years. So, that number of commuters today is considerably higher than your 2000 figure.
Now, in 2000 you showed that there are 62.4% more people coming into the city for work on a daily basis. That means that there are 62.4% more people using the services and utilities that only the resident population of Atlanta pay for....and they do it for free. That also means that there are 62.4% more people that come into the city from, say 9-5, and then go home, abandoning the city and the streets. And you think it makes more sense to build a streetcar system to cart a small population of people back and forth along Auburn Ave (when they could walk it anyhow), rather than make the commuters pay for their share of the social cost they impress upon the city, and then use some of those revenues to incentivize more businesses, more jobs, and more housing to increase the urban population?
I can appreciate a debate, but when you use statistics that are 11 years old, and then prove my main point - that Atlanta's problem is the fact that too many people commute in, use the city as they wish, don't pay for that usage, and then leave the city to be supported by the small population that does live in the city - and my secondary point - that the current population is not vibrant enough to support a streetcar system effectively, and using resources to develop that system would be wasteful when considering all the other things that could be done with that capital - with those statistics, it's jut like arguing with an angry child
I used the 2000 census because it is the most accurate and the they only come out every 10 years. It is still very relevant because despite the growth in the city and metro area, the CITY of Atlanta actually has less jobs now then it did in 2000, which means there would not be significant increase (most likely a decrease) in the number of people commuting into the city. And if you think it really increased from 250,000 to "millions" you are out of your mind. When they release the 2010 statistics, you will see that there will not be a significant change. I don't think the census bureau makes things up either.
"In 2000, the city boasted 478,000 jobs. By 2008, there were 395,000."
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/engine-for…
Less jobs in the city = less people commuting, even if more people live in the metro area. And if you took a poll and ask people/businesses what factors would make them want to live/locate in the city or what factors would influence them to live/locate in the city, a bunch of tolls would probably be dead last. Parks and transit (the Beltline!), walkability, etc is what attracts people to the city. Your only solution seems to be toll booths to collect revenue which the city can't do. Like I said, these are state highways/roads and if they put up tolls, which they won't, the state would collect the revenue, not the city.
Besides, it doesn't matter what you think because the streetcar and the Beltline is happening and it will work. So much for you being an "advocate" of Atlanta, ha, what a joke.
Here's some more facts for you, which you seem to ignore...
"Even as Atlanta’s population grew, the number of jobs in the city plummeted by 17 percent this decade, according to U.S. Census figures."
Marcus predicts Atlanta will lose “a lot of taxes and a lot of jobs” if leaders do not step up and address crime and quality-of-life issues.
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/engine-for…
Quality of life issues = more park space, more transit, connecting neighborhoods, making the city more walkable/vibrant, streetscape improvements (which are happening thanks to Central ATL Progress, Midtown Alliance, and Buckhead CID) and yes, safety (crime is another topic).
Your attitude is telling - "it doesn't matter what you think, because it will work". That's what I would expect from someone who is so vested in the gloss of an idea that they can't think critically enough to see that just because something is new, doesn't make it improved.
Again, your missing the point. Spending money on a streetcar to transport people back and forth between a blighted area of the city will do nothing to encourage the growth of anything other than a few cheap sub shops catering to the poor demographic that currently lives there. A streetcar will not promote residential interest and it will not promote the type of commercial interest that makes a difference. People that come into the city are going to go to their jobs and go home. For the people that live in the city the streetcar will be rarely used other than by the small segment that lives on/close to the line. The outcome will be the transport of small numbers of economically distressed people to and from under-developed areas. The better idea would be to divert those funds to development and inentives for job creation, and business relocation. A commuter tax is just another way to help fund some of those incentives and impose an appropriate social cost.
I'm an Advocate of Atlanta, because Atlanta is a city, and I want to see it thrive. Wasting resources on projects that are little more than PR stunts is not what helps a city. I dot expect you to get it. You clearly think that transportation is the key to a city, while I think it's people. I wish it would be possible to follow up with you in 10 years, when the streetcar and large portions of the beltline are rusting and unused. I'll just have to preemptively take the opportunity to say "I told you so".
And your attitude is telling - you already believe everything is in your favor for the streetcar and the Beltline to fail. I don't expect someone like YOU to get it.
For the record, the streetcar route does not go through a blighted area. Centennial Olympic Park and over by Peachtree Center MARTA is not blighted. The only area in transition is Edgewood Avenue and Auburn Ave, but it is not blighted either. Several restaurants and bars, the Sweet Auburn Curb Market, as well as apartments have popped up over the past couple of years. That area just needs a push to completely transition over and the streetcar is a great way to do it. The streetcar route passes several "tourist" spots, offices and GSU and you think it'll just be serving a bunch of poor people? The Beltline route between Lindbergh MARTA and Inman Park MARTA is also not blighted and dense enough to support transit. I live near Piedmont Park and would love to not have to drive to Inman Park, for example. There is so much along that route - if you have never walked it, you should.
You say it won't work, but it has worked in other cities, like Charlotte, where their light rail line goes through South End which was once a boring industrial area and is now a thriving residential and commercial area. I used to live in Charlotte and South End used to be a joke. Ever since the light rail opened, a bunch of new apartments/condos and restaurants were built/opened.
You can throw as much money as you want for incentives for businesses, but they won't relocate to Atlanta if we don't physically do something to make our city a better place. I'm not saying we shouldn't market our city as a great place to live and do business, but that's not the ONLY solution.
And I don't expect you to get it either - YOU are completely missing the point. How can we get more high quality people ("the creative class") to live in the city, since you believe they are the key to a city (and I can agree on that)? You think it's by incentives and commuter taxes and I think it's by building projects that help connect neighborhoods in our city and increase much needed park space.
Charlotte is a decent comparison. However, Charlotte's light rail connects an area that was under-developed with it's city center. Sounds similar to the Atlanta Streetcar, right? Well, the difference is that Charlotte's "uptown" center is a thriving neighborhood for the city's restaurant scene, nightlife scene, and cultural scene. Downtown Atlanta is none of the above. The restaurant scene is a lot of chain restaurants that cater to the 9-5 crowd (with the exception of a few). There is little nightlife to speak of, and the kind there is, is the kind that isolates the city, not the kind that brings the city together. The cultural scene in Atlanta is almost entirely located a few miles north (with the exception of the small MLK area).
Having a streetcar that passes several offices doesn't really do any good. I'm not sure what kind of job you have, but mine doesn't allow me to leave during the day to go ride around on a streetcar...most people's don't. Most people go to their jobs, work, and then go home...they don't bounce around on a streetcar. MARTA moves between tons of offices, cultural spots, and tourist areas btw Arts Center and 5 Points, but nobody uses it for those purposes - they use it as a point to point transportation system. MARTA serves some pretty affluent areas of the city, but it's viewed as "transportation for the poor", because, in all reality, most of the people that find utility in it are poor(er).
What do you think job creation and business relocation does for a city? It makes it a better place. You get the creative class to come into the city by providing them incentives to be here. From a professional standpoint, that means jobs. From a social standpoint, that means new and exciting nightlife/social activity (for which the city is notorious for not being easy to deal with when it comes to opening/operating nightlife establishments). If you're not marketing your city (and providing the incentives to come here) as a great place to live and do business, then what the hell are you marketing it as!? A place to come and ride the streetcar?
My idea is this - and please read this carefully, so that I don't have to write it again - What Atlanta needs is a pro-urban campaign. This means people who understand the fundamentals of urban development and connecting people in an urban space (so this excludes you). From a construction standpoint in the near term, this means creating rental housing that appeals to different demographics (so 80/20 housing structures, etc.), building small green spaces in urban areas (which means not way out by the waterworks) so that they can actually be used by (and enhance the lives of) the people that live nearby, and allowing the sensible urban development of new structures for new businesses (by sensible I mean dense..not single story structures that take up a lot of space relative to their economic constribution). From an incentives standpoint, it means appropriating money to offer businesses a reason to be in the city, and people a reason to live in certain areas (until those incentives create themselves). This works, and it works well. NYC's Midtown West neighborhood was blgihted 10 years ago, and then the city started offering all sorts of development and corporate incentives...now it is very much an up & coming neighborhood. Similar events have happened in many cities with pro-urban policies. One of the most important pro-urban policies also needs to be to shift the social cost to the appropriate people as well - via something like a commuter tax. Spending 40+ hours a week using a city's utilities & services, and not paying anything for them should be unacceptable. period. There is a cost to having such an enormous amount of people that commute in and out of the city every day, and those very people don't contribute a dime for it. That's wrong, no matter how you slice it. It's total BS too, when you have a huge population of people, like those who live up the 400 corridor, who complain about paying $1 a day to go to a city that provides them with the very job that enables them to live the life they live. Those people need to be told to shut the F up, or find a similar opportunity in Cumming. Lastly, the connectivity of good transportation should be provided, WHEN IT MAKES SENSE. Connecting areas, particularly lower income areas, doesn't foster development. Connecting areas where a lot of people live, work, and play, and NEED a more efficient form of transportation does. A streetcar in Downtown Atlanta might make sense, if the other policies are put in place first. However, right now, it doesn't.
Downtown Atlanta has failing high schools that are currently in danger of losing their accreditation and the city is spending 9 MILLION on a street car. What are these elected officials thinking? Vote them out.
So why exactly do we need a train that goes from King Center to Centennial Park? How about from Piedmont Park to Downtown? Or from where people LIVE to where people WORK. I just drove by the King Center on my way to Rolling Bones. Didn't seem to be any traffic troubles.
this whole line makes little to no sense....
Centennial Park to King Center is very busy during the weekdays but on nights and weekends, only people down there are bums and out of towners....
wouldn't it make more sense to run a rail line north and south on Peachtree?
but then again, it's the city of Atlanta.... nothing city leaders do actually makes any sense....
Azz: The transit honchos say the goal of the Streetcar is development, don't they? Therefore, shouldn't the transit line go where there is little development? I'm not saying the Streetcar meets that criterion (I think it does not), but is that the reason more mass transit will not soon happen on Peachtree?
AA have you even been to the beltline? I ask because I can already see a direct effect on the beltline path and the vast improvement in Old Fourth Ward area. New condos have replaced old abandoned warehouses, a new park, street lights, and less boarded up houses. Sure it is not Disney but the project is only starting. If the beltline really ever does get paved and then add a rail line it will do the same thing all along the line.
How many light industrial jobs are being displaced by the Beltline's gentrification? One of the reasons the city is losing jobs is that we are driving out manufacturing plants by daft zoning changes. We have a glut of residential property and the Beltline just adds to the inventory of residential land. That was less obvious when the Beltline was first mooted, but now that we have a housing bust, we should change strategy. It's perverse to destroy what's left of reasonably-paid blue-collar jobs in the city.
Damien: Of the items you listed, wasn't the housing already in the works before the BeltLine was hatched? Wouldn't the detention pond (aka park) have been built because of downstream sewer needs? I support the BeltLine, but does it make sense to credit everything to the BeltLine? So far, has much really occurred due to the BeltLine (not counting the huge pay day for Wayne Mason)?
"How many light industrial jobs are being displaced by the Beltline's gentrification?"
Uh, zero? It's not like industrial jobs just go away based on sheer geographic displacement. If it continues to make economic sense to have the job in the area, you just move to another facility. Simple.
"One of the reasons the city is losing jobs is that we are driving out manufacturing plants by daft zoning changes."
Do you have any proof of this at all, or is this your layman's opinion?
"It's perverse to destroy what's left of reasonably-paid blue-collar jobs in the city."
It's perverse to blame the Beltline for declining industrial employment in Atlanta. You might as well blame the Beltline for food truck legislation.
Eric: Doesn't the BeltLine get credit for everything positive that happens anywhere near it? Why is the reverse never true? Since some of the BeltLine route is still actively used by trains, isn't it reasonable to assume some industrial/manufacturing jobs will be lost? Otherwise, what are those trains doing?
qm, the beltline isn't going to force train lines currently in use to stop.
my advice - take the beltline bus tour and learn a little more about a subject you seem very interested in.
"Doesn't the BeltLine get credit for everything positive that happens anywhere near it?"
No, because the Beltline hasn't been built yet. See, in a temporal reality we experience the majesty of cause and effect. A thing happens, and then other things happen because of the first thing. In this case, the first thing hasn't happened yet so we cannot say what 'effects' it might have 'caused'.
"Why is the reverse never true?"
1) This is a silly generalization
2) It's also factually incorrect in this case
That's why.
"Since some of the BeltLine route is still actively used by trains, isn't it reasonable to assume some industrial/manufacturing jobs will be lost?"
No. Those jobs are only lost if the business decides not to reopen in the area. If the Beltline physically displaces a successful company, why would that company not move to one of the many other light industrial parks that dot the metro area? You're operating under the assumption that once a factory's building is destroyed that firm is somehow banned from acquiring a new facility and reopening shop.
There really aren't enough ways for me to tell you how wrong you are so please just take it as a given that you and cityzen are incorrect regarding this issue.
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