Friday, May 6, 2011
Neighborhoods Developers rethinking 'Midtown Mile' concept
Posted by Thomas Wheatley @thomaswheatley on Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:56 PM
The commercial developers who envisioned such high-priced stores as Prada and Dolce & Gabanna lining Peachtree Street between the Woodruff Arts Center and North Avenue are saying, well, with this economic catastrophe that just happened, maybe we should revise that plan. Via this week's Atlanta Business Chronicle (sub. req'd.):
It’s scaled back to about 601,000 square feet of existing and planned retail between the Arts Center and Fifth Street. It will include more retailers like CB2, a Chicago-based home furnishings chain that opened on the Mile last year and targets the young hip and discount-conscious urban resident.It will also feature more regional and local retailers than the Mile’s initial plan. [...]
The goals underscore an important retail transformation.
National retailers, seeing their big-box stores struggle amid new pressures such as the growing influences of Internet sales, are shifting to smaller real estate footprints.
The move is, in part, an effort to better meet the shopping needs of the average Midtown consumer, which the Chronicle says, prefers "great brands at a value." It's similar to what's been proposed by the new owners of Atlantic Station's retail center — making the area the "anti-mall."
No one is asking for our advice, but we'll give it anyway: Woo Cartridge World and Batteries Plus. And a Sizzler. You'll be golden.
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Without Dontberry's cooperation, there will always be a big gap in the middle of the mile... and he seems to be clear that he doesn't play well with others. Too bad but even if it ends up as two Midtown Half Miles, stores that sell day to day goods instead of once in a life time items will be welcome.
Just don't give us an Applebee's where The Vortex is currently located.
So, in essence, this says that the developers are going to turn midtown mile into a cluster of suburban bullshit over time. Great. Hey, here's an idea...stop building stores and offices, and build apartments. now. this will bring the people, and the money into the city that you need to support the type of unique and/or high profile stores that you want.
Great, more national chains...just what we need. How about pushing local businesses instead? Let's have our own identity, not an imported corporate one.
It will also feature more regional and local retailers than the Mile’s initial plan.
What part of this statement do the last two poster not understand?
For the kajillionth time Midtown already can support retail. We currently have a fraction of the US average amount of retail space per resident. The article also points out that Midtown serves a population of 1 million including office workers and visitors.
There just has to be enough critical mass of retail to make it a retail destination and that is hard to do from scratch because everything cannot be built all at one time.
What about making it the "Midtown Mini-Mile" and putting in a restored Ollies' Trolley?
yes, you need a critical mass...of people. Midtown might have a fraction of retail space, per resident, as the US average. However, very few of those residents live in apartments or urban structures, and are therefore hardly incentivized to be out walking around, spending time on the sidewalks and streets, and therefore don't bring the foot traffic that is needed.
Midtown also serves a population of 1mm people - including office workers and visitors. Well, since the entire city population of Atlanta is 400 some-odd thousand, that means that the majority of that 1mm are office employees. Guess what - office employees are only in the city from 9-5 (on average) and are, you guessed it, in an office most of the day. Therefore they provide very little extra push to retail, particularly the kind that doesn't cater to the 9-5 worker, and it's that type of retail that the residents want/need.
So, again. Atlanta, get your head out of your ass. Stop building isolated single family homes and office buildings, and start building dense urban apartments. If you do this, you will bring the most important element of all - people - into the city, and the rest will follow. Supply without demand is doomed for failure.
"No one is asking for our advice, but we'll give it anyway: Woo Cartridge World and Batteries Plus. And a Sizzler. You'll be golden."
The Midtown Alliance is asking for your opinion...
http://www.alexanderbabbage.com/2010/Midto…
Density is next to Godliness.
City wide may be a little different but how do you build an "isolated" single family home in Midtown? Aren't you like two blocks from the urban beast anywhere in Midtown? I also don't understand how apartment dwellers will walk around and spend money locally but dwellers in detached homes will not. How does that work?
Dave, take a stroll down 15th street and the Prado, and that's how you build a single family home in Midtown. And much of the side streets in midtown are littered with single family - 11th btw Juniper & Piedmont, etc. Single family, by it's nature, is isolated, as it doesn't share any common space, and the tenants don't have any common interactions. The better question is, how can you even ask that question, if you've ever spent 15 minutes in Midtown?
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating destroying all of this single family to build apartments. I'm saying build mixed use apartments in the areas that are currently undeveloped.
Apartment dwellers are more inclined to walk around, spend money, etc. because with dense residential development (which single family is not) you create that critical mass of people that, in turn, creates the demand for retail business. If you look at successful cities around the country/world, the one thing they all have in common is abundant residential rental development. The denser the development, the more amenities are nearby. Are you going to get in your car to drive two blocks to find parking, when you can walk it? What creates more consumer demand - 100 single family homes, spread out over 25 acres, or 400 apartments covering 6 acres? It really shouldn't be that difficult to figure out.
I agree that building dense on undeveloped land is best, but Atlanta is different from most urban settings and that's a good thing. It's a city in a forest. It's a city with a small town feel, even a rural feel in it's neighborhoods. You can stand in your backyard in many places and feel like you're in the country. This is a good thing. Having detached home neighborhoods right on the CBD's doorstep is a good thing. There are plenty of cities like Baltimore or Chicago with density up the Yin-Yang. I'll take genteel Atlanta any day, even if we have trouble keeping the Peachtree storefronts rented out. And people ARE flocking to the city core. As the economy comes back, the zillion empty high rise condos will fill up and they will build more and we will both be happy.
Considering we have 4 housing units to every one family right now in the city (thanks, Census!) I highly doubt there's going to be more apartments or condos built. Unless, of course, the builders have a death and/or bankruptcy wish.
Why are we always trying to copy other cities? "The Rodeo Drive of the South," says Buckhead builders. "Midtown Mile because we want to be like Chicago," says Midtown developers. Look at the neighborhoods that are uniquely Atlanta (L5P is a great example) of how people come to the businesses that are there. I mean, that is unless you'd rather compare L5P to the East Village and start marketing it that way.
Dave, virtually every city was a "city in a forest" before it became an urban center. This rural amenity that you describe isn't a good thing in the city of Atlanta, because it hinders the city's ability to provide the number one benefit that cities provide - which is connectivity, cooperation, and integration. Crime is bad, traffic is bad, the commercial outlook is bad. This is so, because Atlanta does not provide the density and the critical mass of people needed to maintain/support a successful city.
People live in secluded homes, and interact with fellow citizens far less than in cities that have more dense residential development. This prevents the passive, but highly effective, security that cities provide. It also prevents the cooperation and melding of ideas and diversity. The demographic statistics of this city make that very clear.
Furthermore, people aren't "flocking to the city core". Quite the opposite. Over the 10 year period of 2000 - 2010, the CITY added just over 3,500 people. That's not exactly "flocking".
The facts and statistics don't lie, and the direction in which they point is the direction of continued sprawl, further economic problems, and the continuing disintegration of the city structure of Atlanta. People need to stop deluding themselves that owning a home, driving a car, and having a nice little piece of land is the greatest thing since sliced bread, because it's not. It's destructive to the elements of cooperative progress, which is what true cities provide.
Leigh, there's no reason not to build urban apartments. The stats you reference are for home ownership, having nothing to do with rental. Apartments are in high demand, particularly as there has been virtually no new construction over the past few years (because financing hasn't been available). Rents are increasing, which makes development (at least for the first couple of developers) an attractive option in Atlanta.
Who would want to shop in this dump of an area? Trust me, Atlanta is done and smothered in urban blight. North Georgia outlets has better stores than those proposed for the so called "mile". I wonder why Atlantic Station is such a dismal failure?What about the "Underground"? Just the place I would like to take my family.
What a joke. Go to Chicago or New York to get real shopping.
@ Atlanta Advocate: I think that you should fact check your 2000-2010 population data. You should also include a comparison of average household income for that same time period.
"North Georgia outlets has better stores than those proposed for the so called "mile"."
hahahahahahaha
gee i wonder why a city-hating redneck would love outlet stores ahaha
"The facts and statistics don't lie, and the direction in which they point is the direction of continued sprawl, further economic problems, and the continuing disintegration of the city structure of Atlanta. People need to stop deluding themselves that owning a home, driving a car, and having a nice little piece of land is the greatest thing since sliced bread, because it's not. It's destructive to the elements of cooperative progress, which is what true cities provide."
hey - you're talking about atlanta as a region and dave is talking about atlanta as a city. i totally feel your argument, but dave is more correct in this circumstance since we're talking about development specific to atlanta as a city. yes regional shopping has regional impact but if you two are going to debate the course of atlanta urban development you'll have better progress if you're talking about the same atlanta.
Midtown and to a lesser degree Buckhead are going to remain the focal points of commercial and urban growth for the foreseeable future (in Atlanta). The census showed both population and financial growth/avg. income in Midtown. Were the plans grandiose and over reaching, yes. However anyone who has spent any appreciable time in any major city can see where Midtown is headed. It already arguably has the best concentration of restaurants, nightlife and culture in the southeast (excluding the Florida which is an aberration). In the next few years it will continue its growth and increased population means safety which means greater growth etc. Developers arent nesc. the smartest people in the room as far as market tops and bottoms but they are usually accurate predictors of future growth both residentially and commercially.
@clincher - you're wrong. According to the census, the population of the CITY of Atlanta in 2000 was 416,474. In 2010, it was 420,003.
I'm not talking about Atlanta as a region, I'm talking about Atlanta as a city. And, per the statistics, and the census, people are not "flocking to the city core". Quite the opposite, they're flocking away from the city core. My point is that, by encouraging this suburban sprawl, you undermine all the great things that cities provide. Atlanta is hardly a city as it is, and the deluded "I want a home, because it's a good investment, and renting is inferior" mentality that so many of the people in this MSA possess is highly destructive.
@pdiddy, this isn't a waffle house menu, and nothing is "done and smothered"...
Atlanta Advocate:
The areas you mentioned in Midtown (Between Juniper and Piedmont) are already zoned for high density residential. The other areas you are talking about is Ansley Park, not midtown. Only a small section of total properties in Midtown are zoned for high rise office, and the idea is that people will chose to live close to where they work (and this is largely responsible for high rents in Midtown)... So I dont know what exactly you think the city should do.
Ansley Park is effectively a subdivision in Midtown, not it's own self sustaining neighborhood. A lot of the space in between Piedmont and Juniper is occupied by single family homes/townhomes, so if it's zoned for higher densities, it isn't being used for it. I also didn't say anything about office. To that point, the last thing Atlanta needs is more office space.
So, what I think the city should do - strictly from a housing perspective - is take the parking lots and other vacuous areas in Midtown, and zone them for high density residential development, and then offer incentives to private developers to build apartments that create a denser and more diverse neighborhood. For example, they can provide tax breaks/credits to a developer to build a project with 80% of the units dedicated to market rate housing, and the remaining 20% dedicated to those who fall below a certain level of the AMI. Importantly, these developments should make mixed use possible, and hide any parking underground. I honestly believe that a few small/mid size projects between Ponce & 18th St, between Piedmont & Spring, would drastically change the neighborhood for the better, and create the type of demand that businesses need. When the go-go years of residential development were happening in Midtown, it was almost exclusively condo, and well, we all know how that's turned out.
AA agree with some of your points but...
I don't think AMI based incentives would work in Atlanta, tax rates, land and "right to build" rates aren't high enough in Atlanta to offer a realistic incentive vs. the risk the developer would take.
I do agree with you as far as surface parking lots and even go further. One of the biggest issue I see with growth in Atlanta is the car culture. ALL vital cities in the world encourage pedestrian traffic. Not only is it great for retail, and health and overall sense of community but it acts as a natural crime deterrent as well. So, yes anything to build over the all the parking lots.
The argument will be made of course that people from the burbs will not frequent areas where parking is more difficult. Even if it encourages a very small % of the people who decide that they would rather live in a more urban area or take public transport than to deal with the driving in/parking it is a financial win for any metro area. [It also justifies higher housing costs to live in-town when a parking spot is including with your residence].
(I challenge anyone to name a single 'world class city' in which parking is as easy, inexpensive and perceived to be as critical as it is in Atlanta).
AtlantaAdvocate: Almost all the areas you are talking about are already zoned for high density residential. There is more than enough land zoned high density residential, its just undeveloped. (Except for Ansley Park, which will never be zoned for anything other than single family homes because it is a strong, rich, powerful neighborhood and they dont want it to be anything different. Not that having a strong, rich neighborhood close by is really bad for anylocal businesses, anyway).
I believe there are already a number of tax breaks possible for affordable housing through the ADA/city, but I am not sure on the details in Midtown. I think getting bank funding based on affordable housing rentals is difficult, and most midtown developers were nothing without bank money.... I think the city is pretty spot on in Midtown with regard to how it is zoned, its just a matter of letting it get developed (and, if anything, NOT redesignating other parts of the city closeby for high densities. Let the parts zoned for high densities get developed first, then start rezoning other areas for high densities. Atlanta already has too much of a patchwork of high density buildings, partly because too much is zoned for high density).
vox, I would like to see Peachtree go pedestrian only on Saturday/Sunday. (Like it is for the Midtown arts weekend or whatever).
Well, an AMI incentive would allow for someone at, say 50% of the AMI to rent an apartment in a new building at a steep discount. With a 30309 AMI of approx. $70k, that could allow for a lot of young professionals, or other working class people to populate that 20%. It brings a younger, and more diverse, population into Midtown, which I think is a good thing.
As far as the develop perspective is concerned, you just have to create tax credits/incentives that are appealing enough. I think the risk is minimal at this point for any developer who believes in the value of urban rental housing. The fundamentals for new apartment development are strong right now, and I think you have a high demand to rent apartments in Midtown, with few options. Most of the dense housing is condo, and many of those units rent to non-owners. However, the rents on a lot of those units are also grossly mis-priced. Bringing 300-400 units into the city in 3-4 developments over the next 2-3 years, would not present a measurable risk. If you just allow developers to go ga-ga though, it could. It's a process that has to be controlled and measured.
I couldn't agree more - parking. I would love to see developments with no consideration for parking, but as it stands currently, I don't think anyone would live in them. I think that's an idea Atlanta needs to embrace, but it needs to do so once they've created a dense enough of a population to where public transportation is viewed as the beneficial thing that it is, and not the bullshit stereotype that Atlanta has of it.
Most "world class" cities have sufficient public transportation.
I read that MARTA laid its first line of rail in 1971 (I believe). So in 40 years, all that has been built are the two lines you see today. No loops, no spurs, no nothing. Its like a big + sign over a map of Atlanta. One would think that anyone with any sense would have said at any point in the last 40 years "Hey, let's run public transportation to places people want to be/to places we want people to go". No line to Atlantic Station, no trolly up Peachtree, nothing to carry you to Piedmont Park.
I would not call Atlanta a "world class city". A major reason for this is the sorry state of public transportation. I know many from Atlanta say this is a "world class city", but I don't think it measures up to those truly "world class cities" across this nation and planet.
I enjoy the city, but let's be honest: The fact the city is divided over multiple counties which creates infighting and destroys any hope of cooperation for a unified dream of what this city could be. Unless there is change then Atlanta will be one of those "what could have been" cities.
"virtually every city was a "city in a forest" before it became an urban center."
Yep..and they are mostly shitholes now. Don't want that to happen here.
AA your ideas are flowing in a decent direction but you can't lose sight of a couple of things. You can't just look out over an area and manifest a sweeping vision. Property owners have their own ideas and you have to bring them along and form consensus on grand visions. We don't need any more subdivisions with 3/4 acre lots near the city core. Agreed. Build dense housing on parking lots and undeveloped land. Agreed. That one will take a while since we have all these ghostly looking empty condo buildings all over. They will fill and we will have a real estate sector again but it will be a little while.
My concern is that Atlanta remain uniquely green and small towny. That Midtown district was bustling a long time ago without benefit of Brooklyn-like density around it and it will again if the right businesses locate there.
"I would not call Atlanta a "world class city"
Not only is Atlanta a world class city, it is the greatest city in the greatest state in the greatest country...(rips off shirt and beats bare chest.)
Seriously, the fact that we could do better on land use planning and public transportation is just a minor negative in a bounty of positives. Atlanta is VERY livable and I have heard over and over from transplants that they loved the city immediately on moving here. Keep trying to do it better, city fathers, but don't screw it up by trying to make it what it's not. It's a car town and it always will be. Improve public transit, for sure, but you'll never replace the car culture, which is on par with Southern Cali.
Oy, If Atlanta wants to keep on growing, and they do because that's capitalism, they can't have such a reliance on cars.
Also not sure where you get that midtown once "was bustling a long time ago" in the 80's midtown was not a great place to be, my biggest regret is not having cash back then to buy land. Heck just look at the quality of the apartments and older homes - hardly high rent.
Atlanta doesn't need NYC densities overall, though some NYC densities along the Juniper to Spring/downtown connector Street Corridor, the whole downtown area and around some of the other MARTA stations sure would be nice. That way we could get some growth while saving the "city amongst the trees" feeling.
In order to become a world class city we need more nightlife, which is dependent on more people living in midtown and downtown. Heck if we get enough people we might be able to even get people to go see a hockey game.
@Big left foot - well said
@Dave - really? NYC is a shithole? Chicago is a shithole? Paris is a shithole? You're definitely talking, but you're not really saying anything.
Remaining green is something I think everyone would like to see. But something we all have to remember is that urban lifestyles are far more "green" than their suburban counterparts. The carbon footprint of a city-dweller is a fraction of those who live in suburban areas. You drive less (or not at all), you use less electricity, etc. as a city dweller. Just building big parks doesn't make you "green" by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as keeping Atlanta "small-towny". Fuck no. Small rarely do anything dynamic. They don't create environments that bring together diverse groups of people, and allow them to interact, share ideas, and create new things. This is what cities do. This is why smart, ambitious people move out of small towns and into cities. If you want a small town feel, move to a small town. Don't try and create a regressive environment in a place that has the potential to be something more than a bunch of little small town type neighborhoods. Your small town idealism, and "this is what it is, and what it will always be" is exactly the type of narrow-minded attitude that stymies the creative thought process that favors progression and success.
I'm not saying we need an endless sea of 50+ story skyscrapers. I don't want Atlanta to be NYC. I want it to be functional, and vibrant. I want people to be out, and on the streets, at times other than noon on a Tuesday. I want independent businesses, restaurants, and nightlife to define trends that are uniquely Atlantan, and I want our zip codes to have demographic profiles that aren't 85% one racial group.
More nightlife? Hell yeah. How about bringing back the nightlife that was there? The idiots closed the Buckhead meat market and Backstreet and the all-night clubs. WTF? How stupid do the Buckhead titans feel now? Would you rather have what was there, the streets full of people or the emptiness that is there, now? Buckhead was known the world over as a place to get little Elvis wet and now it's nothing. Nothing. And don't get me started on Backstreet, etc. We were known the world over for the bars. Not any more. At least we still have world class titty bars.
The Midtown Mile was bustling in the decades before us, I-Man. I'm thinking forties and fifties, not eighties. In the early eighties, I worked in an office on the Vortex block and it was...interesting.
AA - we're just on different wavelengths. Yeah those three cities are really something, but there are thousands that fall way short. And I'm not the one trying to change the town into something it's not. What do you mean move if I want a small town feel? Atlanta has it and if you don't want it, you move. I was here first ;-)
Dave, you were here first. And you're a classic case of the NIMBY'ism that always attempts to undermine progress, in lieu of keeping things how they "used to be". I've got news for you...that type of attitude has no place in a world where people want to move forward. I believe Atlanta is that type of place. I believe the truly vital people of this CITY want to see Atlanta shed it's outdated attitude and move towards something bigger and better. You're clearly not one of them, and in due time, you'll get pushed aside in favor of progress...your type always does.
So...being a unique livable city with small town feel, yet with big town amenities is outdated.
Got it.
40's to 50's? didn't we have streetcars back then?
Oy your jumping up to Buckhead - a different story - yea the nightlife got shut down by the wealthy neighbors complete with the early closing hour of 2 AM. though much of that has moved to East Andrews (Lindberg apparently has a club/bar scene going on also and yea crescent in midtown still has stuff). Though I'm not talking necessarily about bars and clubs. I'm talking a variety of post work activities, and the type that many can walk to. We need more places where people walk to the corner bar or walk to the restaurant at night or walk to the train to go see a hockey or basketball game. We got plenty of room to have some old school city densities and other areas to preserve the small town feel - little 5 points, VAHi, Edgewood, leave that to urban small town.
Lets just start off with the midtown/downtown corridor along the connector and MARTA line area - its largely paved over already and was already on its way to NYC style densities with all the highrise condos. Just need to fill in gaps. Though I think that's gonna happen on its own now that the economy is slowly getting its footing back.
I'm kind of surprised that no one has mentioned Park Atlanta in this thread. I know it's kept me from hanging out in midtown or downtown.
I can't stand paying for parking just to spend more money on furniture or booze.
Free parking in the long run isn't a good thing for a city.
Besides NYC gets by without it as do the Falcons and Braves. Make it good enough and they will come. Granted Atlantic Stations parking method ain't bad but that's also helped because its right on the highway - though the 17th street bridge is a disappointment from a multi modal pedestrian friendly point of view.
"We got plenty of room to have some old school city densities and other areas to preserve the small town feel "
Hell yeah. That's what I keep saying. Atlanta has whatever you want.
And Park Atlanta...Satan incarnate, a textbook example of how NOT to privatize services.
One simple solution: Resident parking permits for locals (another perk of living in the city). Commercial parking lots can set their own prices [we ain't commies after all!], but I'm guess their rates will be higher once on street parking isn't as readily available.
Parking is not an inalienable right, MARTA works just fine, as do buses, bicycles, car pools etc. Or step up and pay a reasonable rate for parking. The people that think $10+ a day is too much (split among several people) are likely the same demographic that think $50 is outrageous for a sit down meal and would rather do Olive Garden, and leave a 5% tip.
To be blunt, if you insist on driving in [since you don't like public transportation], and can't justify spending $15 for a day of parking you aren't the type of people that an urban area needs economically or otherwise.
Boston is a perfect example of a world class city that feels like a small town. In my opinion, DC (I realize they have the benefit of federal money) is a more realistic view of what Atlanta could become. The D.C. is a small but very dense core, while also having single family home neighborhoods with pockets of urban development along the metro stops on the Virginia and Maryland sides.
For all of you who keep saying the core of Atlanta is not growing, and then point to census figures showing the city only gained a few thousand people over the last decade, you're wrong. The city as a *whole* only gained 3,000 people. Meanwhile, the census tracts in midtown, midtown west, downtown, and along ponce and near lindbergh (AKA the most urban areas) gained a lot of people. Just look at all of the new apartment and condo buildings.
Meanwhile, a lot of public housing was knocked down in other areas of the city, and a lot of people moved out of southwest. That population lost balanced out the gains in the urban core.
The elephant in the room...
Midtown has ZERO greenspace. Yes, I know there's Piedmont Park on the edge and the housing prices that go with it. Outside of that, literally nothing. Nada.
We have some great restaurants and a couple of nice shops. But they are always separated by massive surface parking lots.
I don't know what the solution is. Owners are just going to sit on those eyesores for years to come.
This lack of greenspace is going to prevent families from living in Midtown. Yes, they are in Historic Midtown but that's 700k homes.
here's the t... i wish developers and restraunteurs would stop coming into my neighborhood and trying to "rethink" what i need. the reason places like the vortex, lil azio's, noodle, and taco mac are so steadfast around here is b/c they cater to the people that live and/or work in midtown. in fact, the building where hudson grille now lives used to change owners and themes every 6 months or so (a fate that seems likely to befall the gorgeous space on the corner of 5th and peachtree, based on whatever tragedy i see being currently pieced together there) until something reasonable moved in, earning the monies of residents and part-time residents. too many boutiques and specialty restaurants want to cater to the "tourist" (read: fox theatre) trade, and rent is just too high for that shit. i imagine that the ever-changing row of tumbleweed-attracting boutiques and restaurants would make this clear to anyone who paid half a minute's attention, but i guess not.
in my opinion, someone needs to get smart and put a decent grocery store on p'tree, somewhere between 3rd and 8th ~ they'd make money hand over fist: forget a pricey boutique or art gallery! sure there are a few grocers in relatively close walking distance, but there are 10-15 massive condo/apartment buildings in this span of peachtree. i'm sure 90% of my fellow residents would never say no to a CLOSER grocery store, especially with both summer heat and higher gas prices on the way. there's a great spot on 4th and peachtree that doesn't even have a pre-existing building that needs retrofitting; the beautiful brick two-story that used to be there got torn down for asbestos sometime last year. someone with money PLEASE buy it before it gets turned into a goddamned parking lot!
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