Sunday, May 22, 2011
Transit Downtown streetcar to be built by Siemens
Posted by Thomas Wheatley @thomaswheatley on Sun, May 22, 2011 at 10:22 AM
- Central Atlanta Progress/City of Atlanta
- Feel free to photoshop yourself into this fancy conceptual rendering
Via the company:
The first car is expected to be delivered in September 2012 with revenue service beginning in early 2013. These will be the first streetcars in Atlanta since 1949 and will mark Siemens entry into the streetcar market in the United States. [...]The four new streetcars are based on the proven Siemens S70 light rail vehicle platform, which was designed in the United States and is in operation in cities such as Houston, Charlotte, San Diego, Portland and Salt Lake City. The streetcars were purchased through an existing contract with the Utah Transit Authority and will be customized to meet Atlanta’s operating environment. The streetcars are fully upgradeable for future light rail operation as the regional system grows
According to the company, the cars will be built in Sacramento, Calif. Major components, including the propulsion system, will be assembled in Siemens' Alpharetta manufacturing facility.
Comments (43)
Showing 1-43 of 43
Wow... it really appears to be happening! I'm glad that Atlanta has gone ahead with modern streetcar and didn't fall back on the heartstrings appeal/borrowed nostalgia of rehab/heritage cars. I'm optimistic that this streetcar project will demonstrate that street-running transit won't cause traffic congestion to explode, and it's also exciting to think that the look and feel of the vehicles can start to suggest that downtown Atlanta is moving forward and able to blend modern designs with its legacy architecture.
like
dislike
I cannot believe it! Wow! I may not be understanding things completely, but; why does the King Center need to be connected to Centennial Park? Connecting the two tourist areas is cool. Aren't they already connected by MARTA, though?
What's really happening, is the city is proving that it continues to favor PR stunts, rather than development that will actually benefit the city. Federico, you're the classic case of the "It's new so it must be progressive" Atlantan.
Not only are these places easily within walking distance of each other, but the city is also wasting resource that could actually be used to create public transport connections to areas of the city that need it. How about a loop from 10th & Peachtree, out to the west side, and back to Midtown via Atlantic Station? How about a streetcar that runs the length of Ponce from Moreland to Peachtree? You know, places that aren't walking distance from each other, and places that enable the use of this transport on a daily basis, rather than just for the sporadic tourist?
Yeah lets put a state of the art, 17 mil rail system between two of the least likely places that Atlatans and tourists alike would ever want to go on an even semi-regular basis...
The streetcar route doesn't exist in a vacuum. It belongs to a long-term transit plan (in Atlanta! imagine it!) that hopes to encompass a wider area in the future. The streetcar doesn't have a single purpose such as shuttling tourists -- it's a multi-faceted project that is partly intended to improve the surrounding area by planting a seed for commercial and residential growth along the line.
That growth will turn a zone that is desolate and underused in many spots on Edgewood and Auburn into a solid line of development that bridges a gap between two major regions of downtown Atlanta -- regions that were harmfully separated by the interstate. This will, in essence, provide three different kinds of connectivity for Central Downtown and Sweet Auburn: they'll be connected by a transit route; they'll be connected by high-performing development; they'll be better connected to the rest of the city as that transit route becomes part of a larger network.
My greatest hope with this development-spurring aspect of the project is that the area west of the King Memorial will get a boost and become a more fitting cradle for the final resting place of one of Atlanta's (and the world's) most prominent citizens. That the city allowed this zone to be as underused and unpleasant as it has been for so long is disrespectful to its rich history.
I'm excited to see that the Streets Alive event this years is along the streetcar route. I think people will get a great look at the potential for improvement in this area when they spend time walking and biking through it.
Sporadic tourist ? I don't think people realize how huge the convention business is downtown. And just because it's going to run from the King Center to Centennial park doesn't mean that's the purpose of the route. There will be several stops along the way and will allow people throughout downtown to head East to the King Center or West to Centennial Park.
There are also plans for other, larger routes. But you need to start somewhere and the thousands of people that attend downtown conventions each year are certainly most likely to use it.
I think it's in a decent area, and i'm just happy it's getting off the ground. I think once people see it in action and see how nice the trains look, more people will be open to allowing it to spread across town.
Is it really true that MARTA had a bus route along that same route, which had to be cancelled due to low ridership numbers?
It's not clear how much information - rather than enthusiasm and sloganeering - was used in making this decision to spend millions of the city's dollars.....
@AtlantaAdvocate: You accuse @federico of being the classic "It's new so it must be progressive" Atlantan. Unfortunately, you are something even worse: the classic, "Somebody wants it so it must be stupid" Atlantan.
If people like you had their way, we'd never make any mistakes. In fact, we'd never do anything at all for fear of making mistakes. We'd still be pushing oxcarts on dirt ruts while the rest of the world passed us by.
But what's really galling is that you back up your opinion with ignorance: You list four other routes that you would prefer for the streetcar to go. But did you ever consider where the vehicles would be housed and maintained for those routes you advocated? This line was chosen first because it allows the city to use the block of land under the interstate between Auburn and Edgewood Avenues for exactly that purpose -- serving as a hub for (what I hope will be) a much broader streetcar presence in the future. If we didn't have a service facility, your routes wouldn't be very useful at all, would they? And if we had a service facility without tracks running to it, well that would be pretty moronic, don't you think?
So you see, mistakes have been made in this presentation -- but basically, only by you.
@AtlantaAdvocate
there is far more along edgewood and auburn worth seeing than just the king memorial. it's pretty clear that this is economic development as much as it is a starting point for light rail in our fair city, and should help with getting the revitalization of this highly underrated part of downtown going full swing.
@Cassie: "Is it really true that MARTA had a bus route along that same route, which had to be cancelled due to low ridership numbers?"
No, it's not true. You might be thinking of the A-to-Z (aquarium to zoo) route that MARTA experimented with; that bus route also had an end-point at the aquarium, but from there it went in an entirely different direction. Also, this bus wasn't removed because no one wanted to travel to these destinations. Rather, it was consolidated into other routes as part of a MARTA-wide cost-cutting strategy.
@Cassie: "It's not clear how much information - rather than enthusiasm and sloganeering - was used in making this decision to spend millions of the city's dollars....."
Actually, I think that is pretty clear. If it's not clear to you, though, you can certainly read up on it.
"It's not clear how much information - rather than enthusiasm and sloganeering - was used in making this decision to spend millions of the city's dollars"
it may not be clear to you, but don't blame others for your own inherent ignorance.
the planning studies are there. a simple google search would point you in the right direction to gather more information. here, i'll even do you a favor:
http://georgiatransitconnector.com/news/no…
bam! look at that! information!
at this point, if the information isn't clear, you have nobody to blame but yourself for being unable to locate or parse the salient info.
Advocate, I believe you missed the point of my original post, which did not seek to debate the merits of adding streetcar to downtown-- the decisions have been made to do that and it is going to happen. But if it were to be nothing more than a PR stunt, as you put it, designed solely as a tourist attraction, don't you think something that plays to a public sense of nostalgia would work better than a modern design? To me the selection of modern streetcar vehicle design suggests that the city is beginning to think of a larger system where the same cars could be used for many different routes. And I agree with you that there are other locations that could use transit service more than this one downtown, but there are many reasons why this has been selected as the pilot project, most of them related to cost and functionality of this alignment. I've never really been a fan of the Peachtree Streetcar idea, which provides slower and less frequent service on a corridor that already has rapid transit with fairly regular stations, but streetcar along Ponce and maybe even Highland-North Highland make sense to me.
And I shouldn't need to defend myself on this, but I wouldn't say that my endorsement of streetcar is a ringing one or that it constitutes thinking that streetcar is progressive. To me, progressive ideas are those that leverage existing resources in innovative ways to meet challenges and needs. The streetcar project doesn't really do any of those-- it's additional money from the federal government serving an area with little established history of transit connection beyond what MARTA already provides. However, it is no doubt inspired by the successes of places such as Portland, which have seen huge returns in private development activity along streetcar lines, and it points to a city finally beginning to see the place for transit in making more growth and development possible.
"The first car is expected to be delivered in September 2012 with revenue service beginning in early 2013."
Here's a bet that the cars will be delivered long before they go into service. The City hasn't begun to move utilities, lay track, run the overhead catenary wire, install signals - all the little things necessary to make the cars run and the things that it takes MARTA years to do. Plus, I hear that they've told the utility companies that they don't have any money for utility work, so the utility companies have to go to the State for money or do it for free.
Don't hold your breath for service in early 2013.
BB -- many aspects of the build out for the streetcar project, such as the platform area and distance between stops, depends on the type of car being used. We've only just now found out what kind of cars we'll have.
The absence of existing infrastructure work for the streetcar is not a sign of incompetence. The sign of incompetence would be settling on that infrastructure before you know what cars are going to be used.
@ Joe - I'm sorry, but that's just not true. I am all for "doing things", at the risk of making mistakes. However, I'm also all for doing things in a manner where they are likely to result in the fewest number of mistakes. P.S. The rest of the world is passing us by, as we continue to do things without thinking them through, or doing them strictly for political gain.
To address your question about service facilities. Yes, as a matter of fact I did think about that. However, I thought it went without saying that if you were to run a loop around west midtown, or from Moreland to Peachtree, along Ponce, there is more than enough space to build a service facility. it's also entirely possible to build one that doesn't come off as an industrial warehouse, thereby diminishing the allure of the surrounding neighborhood. And these areas are in far dyer need of connectivity than the 1.25 miles that exists between the king center and centennial olympic park.
@Cabasse - I'm well aware. The Edgewood area is, in my opinion, Atlanta's best nightlife/dining district. However, putting in a streetcar isn't going to cater to that aspect of the area. When looking at two separate options, (i) Auburn Ave to Centennial Olympic Park or (ii) Virginia Highlands/Poncey Highlands/Little 5 to Midtown, which do you think would get more regular use; my bet all day long is #2.
@Frederico - I can't say whether or not selecting a modern car over a nostalgic car would is a better PR stunt. My implication was that by doing this - introducing a seemingly progressive development (the streetcar) into a tertiary neighborhood of the city, it makes for a great photo op and opportunity for city politicians to tell us how they're looking out for Atlanta. Meanwhile, money and resources that are used for this could be used to run a streetcar through neighborhoods where people and businesses already exist, but have poor connectivity. For example, running a streetcar down Ponce btw Moreland & Peachtree would provide access to those two neighborhoods for a lot of people who would otherwise have to drive. It would spur development along Ponce (a street that could definitely use it), and it would connect two of in-town Atlanta's most consistently vibrant neighborhoods. I think it's fair to say that a line like that would be used consistently during the week, as well as weekend, and would appeal to residents and tourists alike.
For the most part everybody is making valid points but the main point to consider is the fact that you have to start somewhere. The north/south portion going from Five Points to Arts Center is the next step and that is exciting. I think from there the obvious next step would be from Arts Center to Virginia Ave. then on to Poncey-Highland and the like. Which of course will take time. If you have something to complain about go get a shovel and start helping. :)
Gonzo: When you start a journey, shouldn't you know where you are going? Otherwise, won't all roads lead nowhere? What are Atlanta's transit goals? To serve consumer needs? To spur development? To promote tourism? To build an economically viable system? To serve political needs? Without clear objectives--and Atlanta has not articulated them--will we end up with a mish-mash rather than a viable transportation network?
Qman- I would say all of the above are transit goals. Right now we have a mish-mash of roads and a limited train system and a horrible bus system. The biggest problem with a transit system has always been "the last mile".
To the first statement the answer is no. If you don't know where you are going then all roads lead somewhere.
@(Question Man): What do you mean in suggesting that we don't know where we're going? The presumed next phase of the project is the Peachtree Streetcar, from the Five Point Station to the Arts Center area. A tandem and related project is the evolving Beltline transit that will probably use the same tracks and vehicles as the Atlanta Streetcar. And the logical phase after all of that is extending the Peachtree Streetcar to the endpoints on the Concept 3 plan: Fort McPherson on the south and Brookhaven on the north.
Now some of the alternate suggestions sound pretty good too -- especially connections to Virginia Highland and Little Five Points. Since nothing but this first small leg has been funded, you can rest assured that priorities and plans will change over the next months and years. But to say that objectives don't exist is either deceptive or stupid.
Unfortunately for the rest of us, though, you're not alone. A disproportionate number of the comments here fall along the lines of "I don't know what's going on, so I assume nobody does." If you (everybody, not just Question Man) don't know something, then don't complain about your ignorance, fix it.
Joe: Can you point us to the documents/websites/etc. that detail the plans and objectives?
Arts Center to 5 points does seem a little redundant. I note the 110 bus from Arts Center to Buckhead runs every 15 minutes while from Arts Center to 5 points its 30 minutes, in part due to the redundancy of MARTA. I agree to some degree the same redundancy exists on the east west line though I think the potential for transit oriented development is so much greater on the east west line (vs. the other way which is already very very expensive) that its well worth it. the next leg should be further west or east on the east west line so that it links to the beltline.
Then again if it works and if metro Atlanta gets serious about limiting high density development to near meaningful transit then both the peachtree street car and the current rail wouldn't be overly redundant.
This is the link that was already posted on this thread. Just re-posting for Question man since he can not be bothered with research.
http://georgiatransitconnector.com/news/no…
Gonzo: Thanks for the link, but was I confusing when I mentioned planning? For example, does Atlanta's Concept 3 include the now-planned Streetcar route? Didn't the now-planned Streetcar route appear out of thin air and at the last minute? And didn't the City's request for funding this Streetcar route displace Atlanta's request for federal funding for the BeltLine (even though the BeltLine is touted as Atlanta's most important transit project)? Can you help me understand the transportation planning process Atlanta uses? Why does it seem that Atlanta's process invariably ends up merely grabbing at the cute idea du jour?
@(Question Man): I'm not going to help you, and I don't think anyone else should either. It's not our responsibility to do your research for you. But it is your responsibility to do that research before you spout off.
Joe: Why are you upset by a request for a link to info that lays out Atlanta's transit objectives? What if not everyone is as well-versed and knowledgeable as you?
"Additionally, an inner core streetcar network is proposed. These new lines could provide connectivity between Marietta to Emory via the Beltline and Lindbergh or North Point from Gwinnett Place via Norcross and Perimeter Center or open up South DeKalb residential areas to the Cumberland employment center."
Full text here-http://www.transitboard.org/concept3
Really this took 3 seconds on Google.
http://beltline.org/Portals/26/Concept%203…
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/41943210/Conce…
http://www.transitboard.org/concept3
http://www.dot.state.ga.us/aboutGeorgiadot…
@ Darin.
You wrote:
"BB -- many aspects of the build out for the streetcar project, such as the platform area and distance between stops, depends on the type of car being used. We've only just now found out what kind of cars we'll have.
The absence of existing infrastructure work for the streetcar is not a sign of incompetence. The sign of incompetence would be settling on that infrastructure before you know what cars are going to be used."
It seems that you don't understand the process. The streetcars don't arrive on the job and then the designers figure out what infrastructure is needed. The streetcar is a common design and the infrastructure needs are well known. The infrastructure should be designed and built BEFORE the streetcars arrive. That way, they can be tested and go into service soon after arrival.
My guess is that MARTA, in its wisdom, is doing things your way.
This King Center-Centennial Park streetcar makes sense if it is soon extended up Marietta Street, and on to Atlantic Station (as an earlier post highlighting an architectural firm's proposal showed).
But even in its shortened form, there's significant ridership potential. Previous comments are correct that the Downtown tourist business is huge. And, as one who works Downtown, I can tell you that it's a more active and lively place than many metro residents seem to know.
@(Question Man): I help people who get knowledge before delivering opinions. You did it in the reverse order. You don't deserve help.
Those are some innovative ideas, BB. So, you want to choose and hang the catenary and contact wires before you know the specific voltage needs of the tram vehicle? That's edgy -- I love it.
And you want to build loading platforms before you know the specific dimensions of the vehicle? And decide on the spacing of stops before you know the specific carrying capacity?
You're thinking outside the box and going against the grain. Transit planning, Dirty Harry style. I can respect that.
Not sure what BB's concern with the streetcar and/or MARTA is -- I'm guessing his Range Rover can transport him directly to the driving range and Brandsmart without incident.
Your irrepressible bile toward all things related to Atlanta proper is pretty sad, bud.
Don't forget Costco and Applebees! I am sick of all these Gwinnett and Cobb tags all over town and back bitching. Atlanta needs a HUGE commuter tax that goes straight towards mass transit. That would be lovely.
And if you live in Gwinnet or Cobb and commute to Atlanta you should have to pay into a fund that gets divided up among Atlanta residents just for us having to put up with you and your SUVs. Suck on that you yuppie scum.
Don't sully the name of the great Harry Callahan.
dr gonzo - you're a credit to our great city and a paragon of Southern hospitality. When your done feeling superior to the rubes, look up the story of Costco's founder and how he runs the company. If intown hipsters knew about this guy they would petition to get a Costco ITP.
I like the modern streetcars. We don't need them, we can't afford them, they're anachronistic and they'll cause traffic to back up, but they really look effin cool! I'm serious.
Let's do an "L" like in Chicago. Right over Peachtree! Bam, problem solved....pause for applause....nothing?
I'm sorry, a Streetcar that serves areas already serviced by Marta and not fixing cars/trucks off the street to reduce commute time/congestion/pollution is a complete waste of my money. Even if it's only $4 of my share.
Wrong destinations.
Free sites? Uhhh. Have you been to any larger city overseas? Mass transit removes congestion OR Goes between tourist areas that will generate revenue for businesses or generate tax dollars....this entire project is a political hand shake like many of the good ol' boy deals in Atlanta.
And no this is not a pilot....ask Houston how poorly streetcars work for them? Ask how little capacity they really have compared to real rail...I worked on a regional project there and we were looking at ripping out the street cars because it's not a good form of transportation unless it's very short runs with no other traffic in the routes.
I just want to know what's it take for someone east of the loop to have some transportation into town? Not everyone in Lithonia and off 124 (out by Stonecrest Mall) is so well-off that they don't need Marta (which is cutting their rides left and right). And let's not even talk about Stone Mountain!!!
Maybe I'm too new here to understand that what's OTP stays OTP... whatever.
Joe: Have you seen LCC's vision for transit in the metro region?
http://www.livablecommunitiescoalition.org…
Is this the first effort at crafting a set of goals and objectives for regional transit? Do you understand that Atlanta's disjointed stabs at cute, ad hoc projects are not the same as a plan?
QM, its a good plan, and it includes this street car line - note this street car line is already funded so not a part of the 1% tax but the related beltline related segments are related to this.
But keep in mind this plan is like so many before it, a plan that no one moves forward with, no one other than Atlanta. That the reasons for the article today where its noted there are no transit projects ready to be completed in the next 10 years except for the street cars. Why haven't other counties or GDOT been securing right of way for these transit corridors that frankly were identified ages ago?
Do all the plans you want but sooner or later someone has to move, and since Atlanta can't acquire Right of Way up 85 or up 75 or up 400 our out I-20 then they did what they could do. And what they've done fits in nicely with the various regional transit plans that have been developed over the years.
I also have to heavily criticize DeKalb for never taking any steps to protect right of way to the Clifton Corridor.
Latest in Fresh Loaf
-
Time and Place: Read between the lines
To me this photo is about doing your own thing and following your own path in life.
-
Vernon Jones wants to return to the Gold Dome and other interesting qualification tidbits 1
Qualifying period ends, dust settles, campaigns begin
-
Suspects in Pittsburgh gay bashing slated to go to trial Tuesday
The men accused of beating Brandon White in Southwest Atlanta already headed to court
- More »
More by Author
-
City, feds reach agreement on extending sewer overhaul deadlines 4
If approved, city would have additional 13 years to upgrade sewer system
-
First Slice 2/16/12: Gwinnett gaming complex could be just a MARTA ride away... wait, what? 25
Developer offers to donate nine acres for MARTA stop
- More »
